Monday, 9 December 2019

Are you an economic traitor?


Nobody likes to think of themselves as a traitor, but unfortunately many people are tricked into doing treasonous things.

I mean it's obvious isn't it? If someone wants people to act against the interests of their own community, region or nation they obviously need to trick them into doing it don't they?

Hardly anyone is going to commit treason willingly are they?


So in order to sell people treason, a grand deception needs to be constructed to make members of the public imagine that they're doing the right thing, when in reality they've been tricked into terribly betraying themselves and their own people.

Additionally the party that is attempting to get people to act against their own national interest is likely to focus heavily on attacking the reputation of anyone who opposes them. And what better strategy than to reverse reality and accuse their opponent of the very thing they themselves are guilty of?

The people selling you treason aren't going to come at you with a glossy prospectus with the word "treason" emblazoned on the cover. They're going to come at you wrapped in the flag, and constantly questioning the patriotism of anyone who stands in the way of their objective of tricking you into supporting their treasonous agenda.

This is the situation now. In Britain. In 2019.

The treason has been going on now for almost four decades and it's often wrapped up in slick sounding words and phrases like "globalisation", "privatisation""free trade" and "foreign investment", but when you boil it down, it's blatant economic treason.

The groundwork for this economic treason was laid during the Tory privatisation mania of 1979-1997, when huge chunks of national infrastructure were sold off on the cheap, or simply given away for free, to the mega-rich.

The objective of course was to transfer ownership of the most prized parts of the UK economy to private individuals, who could then gorge themselves on the wealth they extracted from the British public.

In 1989 the water supply was privatised, in 1990 the National Grid was broken up and privatised, in 1994 the rail network was privatised, in 1995 Britain's nuclear energy infrastructure was privatised.

All of this stuff that was built up and maintained by the British taxpayer was hastily flogged off on the cheap, leaving the British public no longer stakeholders, but customers to be milked as hard as possible in order to maximise the private profits.

Many of the investors who ended up with chunks of public property were themselves treasonous individuals who used complex tax-dodging schemes to extract the wealth they were milking from the British public into offshore tax havens like Panama.

David Cameron's father was one of the people who made a pretty packet. Not directly from the infrastructure the Tory government were handing out, but by helping the private owners to siphon their profits overseas in order to avoid making a contribution to British society by paying their fair share of tax.


The rate of sell-offs declined significantly between 1997 and 2010 under the Blair-Brown government, but they did nothing to reverse the damage; they continued selling off bits and pieces like Air Traffic Control and the HMRC property portfolio; and they introduced PFI economic alchemy schemes to lumber the cost of current infrastructure spending onto future generations.

One important thing did happen during the Blair-Brown era that set the tone for what was to come. In 2008 the British nuclear power stations that were flogged off in 1995 were brought up by EdF, which is just a front for the French government.

It turned out that the private investors who gobbled up our nuclear industry in 1995 had so little loyalty to Britain that they literally handed the whole lot over to France when they realised it was more profitable to offload it to a foreign government than it would have been to keep running it themselves.

In 2010, when the Tories sneaked back into power (with the help of the Orange Book Liberal Democrats), the rate of sell-offs and giveaways skyrocketed again. They flogged off the Royal Mail at way below market value, they privatised the police forensic science service, they privatised literally thousands of the schools that our kids study at, they privatised the universities, and the Government Pipeline and Storage Systems (the underground aviation fuel distribution network that was created during WWII).

By this time huge chunks of former national industries were falling into the hands of foreign governments.

The Chinese and Qatari governments were particularly keen to get their hands on what used to be our nationally owned infrastructure. China bagged a huge stake in Thames Water in 2012, they teamed up with Qatar to win a major stake in the National Grid in 2016, and in 2017 the Tory Transport Minister Chris Grayling handed the Soutwestern rail franchise over to the Hong Kong government with barely a murmur of protest (apart from in a few left-wing blogs).


One of the most shocking things of all was the sell-off of the Government Pipeline and Storage Systems. This time the Tory government didn't sell it to private investors who then sold it on to foreign governments a few years down the line.

No. In this case the Tories cut out the middle-man and transferred ownership direct from the British public to the foreign governments of Oman and the United Arab Emirates who own significant chunks of the nominally Spanish company it was flogged off to.


When they flogged off our aviation fuel distribution network to the governments of Oman and the United Arab Emirates, the Tory party committed direct economic treason.

They decided that our aviation fuel network was better being run for the benefit of the governments of Oman and the UAE than being run by the British government, for the benefit of the British people, and the British economy.

And the most bizarre thing of all? They sold it off for just £82 million, then immediately signed a ten year lease to hire it back at the cost of £237 million!

Grean news for the governments of Oman and the United Arab Emirates, terrible news for the British public finances.


Boris Johnson keeps wrapping himself up in the Brexit banner and poses as if he's a patriot who loves Britain, but he was part of the government that handed our vital national infrastructure directly to foreign governments, and he's planning to carry on too.

In March 2017 then-Prime Minister Therese May grovelled before the Qataris to beg them to buy up even more of our infrastructure.

Qatar is a country that is so dodgy they've even been accused of supporting terrorism by Saudi Arabia (the global epicentre of Wahabi Islamist fanaticism), but Johnson's predecessor Theresa May actually begged them to come and buy even more of our national silver that the Tories are intent on flogging off.


You might think nothing can be done to stop this Tory treason because "aren't all political parties more-or-less the same?"

Well you'd be wrong to think that.

Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-establishment outsider who has managed to wrest the Labour Party out of establishment control, and he wants to break up this decades long Westminster obsession with globalisation and privatisation.

Corbyn is planning to repatriate some of the most vital public infrastructure. 


Our rail franchises are now 74% operated by foreign governments. Jeremy Corbyn wants to renationalise them and run them for the benefit of the British people.

Corbyn also wants to take the national grid back from the Chinese and Qatari governments and run it for the British people.

And he wants to nationalise the water companies too, putting an end to Chinese government control over our water supplies.

The choice is a stark one. You can either believe the right-wing campaign of smears against Jeremy Corbyn and allow the Tories to con you into supporting their economically treasonous strategy of flogging our national infrastructure and services off to foreign governments ...

Or you can look past the barrage of propaganda from the economic traitors themselves, and their mainstream media bully boys who shill for the billionaire-owned newspapers, look at Jeremy Corbyn's actual policies, and understand that he's actually the patriotic one.

Jeremy Corbyn is the one who is saying that Britain is strong enough and wealthy enough to run our own infrastructure and services.

While the Tories are saying that we're so weak and broke that we have to continue flogging our national infrastructure off to China, Qatar, Oman, the UAE, or whoever else wants a slice, because in the warped Tory mind, foreign governments are so much more capable of running our infrastructure and services than our own country is!


Make no mistake about it. If you swallow the relentless Tory campaign of anti-Corbyn smears and vote the Tories into power again, you'll be committing an act of economic treason.

And what's worse is that you'll not be doing it because you've been duped into it, because you've read this article now, and you've had the grand deception pulled apart in front of your eyes.

If you vote Tory after reading this article, you'll be committing an act of economic treason in the full knowledge of what you're doing. Which is infinitely worse than doing it because you don't know any better than to be tricked by Boris Johnson's deceptive charade of fake patriotism.

If you vote Tory after reading this you'll be committing economic treason willingly and in full knowledge of what you're doing.

Don't vote Tory.



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55 comments:

Anonymous said...

"Are you an economic traitor?"

It's Monday morning and once again Thomas G Clark has blessed us with a rousing two minutes of hate.

fiat500 said...

....at least Tom has thw guts not to be anonymous, Anonymous..

Anonymous said...

@fiat500...

LOL.

Anonymous said...

Corbyn the fence-sitter cost Labour the election another 5 years of Tory shite but the main thing is that Corbyn will exit stage left, the next leader may hopefully leave the 1970s where they belong, fiat500 using that crap moniker does not exactly open the world to who you are

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous

Don't be so judgemental mate, that could well be his given birth name... Maybe he was conceived in the back seat of hatchback.

Anonymous said...

Based upon Thomas's ridiculous definition, it appears that I am an economic traitor. ! thought I was just an ordinary bloke with and an ordinary job trying to my best for me and my family!

The treasonous aspect of my character appears to be born out of my knowledge and experience. I lived through the 70s and the "nirvana" of ever increasing socialism in the UK. I saw that the bins were not emptied, that bodies were not buried, that companies could only open for three days a week, that seemingly every state owned business was on strike and - supported by others who were not involved, but went on strike anyway.

I have watched the poverty increase in every socialist country that has ever existed and witnessed the equality that was achieved. Everyone became equally poor.

Corbyn and McDonnell want to "overthrow capitalism" - conversely, the one system that has proved, time and time again, all over the world, throughout history, its ability to improve the health and wealth of everyone.

So Thomas, as far as I can see, the only treasonous behaviour comes from those trying to flog the con again - despite every (and I mean every) scrap of evidence that con is a croc of s**t that will not work because it has never worked.

Gonkster said...

Finland, Norway, Sweden....so every socialist country is getting poorer is it?
Save it for the daily mail comments section.

MisterAngree said...

Given that so many people are about to do the bidding of Tory shitrags and entrust the running of this country to an evil cabal presided over by a lying self-serving coward, and backed by
the sorts of creep who have doubled their wealth since their chums trashed the global economy for personal gain, I think you'll find that life in the UK will be just dandy. And not an unpleasant shithole divided by the very same Cuntservatives who we seem to consider worthy of reward.

Anonymous said...

@Misterangree

Or people clearly realise socialism doesn't work and they've got no alternative...

Calm down and have a bath.

MisterAngree said...

Don't patronise me you Tory troll. Boris is the only one that stinks around here!

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

Not this shite again.

Finland, Norway Sweden do NOT have nationalised energy or broadband. None of them have a minimum wage, Sweden's rail network is private. None of them have a sustainable investment board for a green economy that utilises the central bank, their equivalent of the chancellor of the exchequer and trade union officials... None of them have a nationalised investment bank (they're part of the NIB, that all the Nordic countries are involved with... bit different spud). The NIB is NOT backed up by nationalised regional investment banks: Blatantly because it would be a bureaucratic nightmare to get any business commissioned.

Steel is not nationalised in any of those countries.

None of those countries levy businesses (all business according to the Labour manifesto) with a demand for 25% of their apprentice levy's to be spent on climate apprentices... fuck me this sounds mental... None of those countries force companies to hire BAME either. Probably because it's sexist, racist and has no empirical evidence behind it bettering people or the economy...

There's many, many more examples of the nordic countries embracing of free market capitalism. Hell just look at the wiki on Sweden's economy in 1991:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden

Opening description of the economy:
"Sweden is a competitive and highly liberalized, open market economy. The vast majority of Swedish enterprises are privately owned and market-oriented, combined with a strong welfare state involving transfer payments involving up to three-fifths of GDP."

Literally: liberalised, open market economy. Bit different from an economy based on bringing markets under "Social ownership" (i.e: The state takes your money and organises these markets how it see's fit. That worked reeeeaaaallly well for Venezuala didn't it?)

Shit, just look at the free market reforms they had to enact in 1991 so they could actually afford to keep taxes so high and afford such high rates of welfare. its literally all in the wiki and you've gone and made yourself look a right prat now haven't you?

Man, do you even understand the definition of socialism? You've not done the most basic of research on any of the three countries you've mentioned. Did you just expect no one to actually take five minutes to compare the Labour manifesto to these three economies considering a google search of: Swedish energy market nationalised? Takes seconds to do.

You lazy, self righteous, ignorant twat.

Merry Christmas ;)

Anonymous said...

@Misterangree

Nope. I know you want a world where you can punish anyone for hate speech because the mere thought of questioning how great the state is and how well it runs our lives is unthinkable to you... But you don't ever get to tell me what to do x x

Gonkster said...

Comparing the Labour manifesto with Venezuala is the same thing as saying ALL socialist states are in decline.
It's a lazy projection of extremes and it's as invalid as your previous argument.
By any measure, the UK is nowhere near AS socialist as half of Europe.
You cannot point at me being lazy without first seeing how
daft your initial post was.
Nor can you wriggle your way out of it by highlighting individual cases of privatisation in one country and ignore the others.
While income taxes are high in Norway for example, their wages are way higher than the UK.
They have also saved their national oil and gas wealth and invested it in their pensions and state services.
Norway has the largest state investment fund in the world.
I can if I want to, find examples of how China is a prime example of Capitalism.
In Nebraska the energy system is state owned.
You'll find some examples of co-op owned energy in the US too.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/07/there-is-nothing-inherently-wrong-with-state-ownership

Theres the true figures and facts for all to see, by all means try to debunk it.

Anonymous said...

Yo're deflecting because your cause is a lost one. Dickhead. Here's your original quote:
"Finland, Norway, Sweden....so every socialist country is getting poorer is it?
Save it for the daily mail comments section."

You explicitly stated they were socialist. I then compared their economies to the proposals in the Labour Manifesto (a socialist one) and came up with eight examples of the nationalised infrastructure they do not share with said manifesto:
-Energy market.
-National investment bank.
-Regional investment banks.
-Steel.
-Broadband
-Minimum wage.
-Swedens Rail.
-Race based and Sex based quotas.

There are more examples in the manifesto, I assumed eight would have been enough for you but you're dishonest in how you debate an individual clearly because you're upset that those three countries you said are socialist: DON'T SHARE THE NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES LABOUR WANT IN THEIR SOCIALIST MANIFESTO. Lol.

Prove your original claim. Prove all three of those countries are socialist and I'll entertain the rest of your reality denying bullshit. Prove that the governments of these countries are directly trying to bring about markets into state ownership as is the very, explicit definition of Socialism.

But you won't. They're not Socialist. They don't describe themselves as socialist. You're a tool.

Merry Christmas ;)

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster:

FYI dickhead:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management[10] as well as the political theories and movements associated with them.[11] Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative"

Prove Finland, Norway and Sweden are actively trying to bring about the markets I've listed or indeed any others they have into a public, collective or co-operative ownership.

You wet fucking rag. Fuck me, I'll enjoy watching you bluster through the shit stain you've left on the carpet again. Twat.

Gonkster said...

Norway is definitely socialist, it's by YOUR definition they are not.
Exactly as per the link ;)

Capitalism btw is ownership of the means of production.

Surely then all employees should be shareholders and we don't have public shares?

Would that be a left wing or right wing concept?

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster:

Norway's socialist despite having means of production privately owned... Okaaay.

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

Fuck me mate, you really don't know your shit do you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Norway

"The Norwegian state maintains large ownership positions in key industrial sectors concentrated in natural resources and strategic industries such as the strategic petroleum sector (Equinor), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminum production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DNB) and telecommunication provider (Telenor)."

So nationalised energy... Ah ha... however:

"Both listed and non-listed firms with state ownership stakes are market-driven and operate in a highly liberalized market economy. The combination of relatively high degrees of state ownership in the Norwegian open-market economy has been described as a form of state capitalism.[28]"

Boom. They function in a liberalised market economy. It's not entirely state run, owned or controlled. What you have is an utter reliance upon their oil to fund their subsidy and welfare as well as a high rate of taxation which leads to:

"Cost of living. Norway is among the most expensive countries in the world, as reflected in the Big Mac Index and other indices. Historically, transportation costs and barriers to free trade had caused the disparity, but in recent years, Norwegian policy in labor relations, taxation, and other areas have contributed significantly."

A massive cost of living. It's so pricy living there you fucking cleft.

Riddle me this dickhead:

Have you actually looked at the comparitive revenue of North Sea oil (declining as it is year by year) to the population of the Uk and done the same for Norways oil to their population?

didn't think so. Have you read economics off the back of a cereal packet?

Go on, refute this. Call is Socialism then please, please provide solid citation and evidence that Finland and Sweden are socialist.

Or do you think there are magically going to be oil fields in Devon after Brexit? idiot. LOL.

Anonymous said...

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

capitalism is private ownership.

you said: "Capitalism btw is ownership of the means of production." No it's not. You're a fucking idiot. Yo've been owned... By the dictionary.

Gonkster said...

You've compared Venezuela in the first instance then tried to explain desperately how Norway is not the least bit socialist yet Labours manifesto doesn't go as far as Norway...
Norway has simply not sold off important state assets and not squandered the money.
Again as per the article it is all about the MISMANAGEMENT of assets and then labelling it as an example that is incorrect...And you know it ofc.

You didn't answer whether having employees with direct ownership was a leftie or rightie concept btw.

In fact, there is no state with such a model, only individual examples like Mondragon.

I would call that syndicalist not socialist.

You have basically said no examples of socialist states exist except within the Labour manifesto.

The wiki article states a RANGE of systems of collective ownership AND the political systems associated with it, that's also in your own text.

It does not state ONLY an entire nation state with ONLY 100% publically owned business.

You can for example finger wag at democratic socialism, social democracy, anarcho syndicalism and so on.

All are "associated" but supposedly different concepts.

How you personally define such things is up to yourself but if you don't agree then don't think others will do so too.
For example, not ALL of Norways economy is private any more than ALL of it is state owned.
Pretty much all countries are like that :D

So where does this leave your original post?

Is Russia socialist?
Is China socialist?

You see where this is going right?

All of these businesses be they state owned or not all operate in the same so called liberal market as everything else, that's unavoidable unless they move to Mars.

Gonkster said...

From wikipedia seeing as you like to use it..
"Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit."

Its basically the same as you linked from merriam Webster above after you discovered to your horror wikipedia described it as I did :D

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Anonymous said...

@gonkster

This isn't finger wagging, this is me pointing out you're a reactionary, ignorant twat who lumps everyone who disagrees with you as a daily mail reader. For that you can go fuck yourself. You'd be getting less abuse if you hadn't lowered the tone. Honestly I've a bunch of mate's reading these comments, you're ignorance and inability to debate honestly is hilarious.

On the definition of capitalism:

You said, AGAIN: "Capitalism btw is ownership of the means of production."

I'll put the key word in caps because you've clearly missed it. But even from the very definition you copied and pasted, capitalism is in fact the PRIVATE OWNERSHIP you absolute idiot. LOL. Fuck me, you understand the difference between private and state owned correct? You think Soviet Russia is capitalist now given every market was wholly state run?

Honestly, it's like playing chess with a monkey at this point. Read more.

So let's look some more into Socialism as a whole and it's definition because clearly you're not doing that because you realise you've fucked this one haven't you?

Fucking lol.

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

Fuck me, if only you'd read the basic tenants of the ideology you so desperately want to force on everyone. Again I'll use Norway as a singular example because you've clearly given up on Sweden or Finland (hardly surprising. Man, you're gonna need to rip that band aid off soon mate).

First point, repeated simplistically because you can't address it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
"Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management[10] as well as the political theories and movements associated with them.[11] Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.[12] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] with social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.[5][14][15]"

The Norwegian Government is making no attempts to turn the rest of the Norwegian economy with it's many privatised means of production: Food, Steel, Broadband, fishing, ship building, chemicals, timber, mining, textiles, pulp and paper... into co-operatives, nationalise them or collectivise them. It is a majority free market system. Look at any other nation state that took upon itself the moniker of socialist: Venezuala, Bolivia, Ethiopia, Soviet Russia (during Lenin's tenure they identified as Democratic Socialist). They all seized upon the means of production and the economy tanked. Norway is not doing this, it is perfectly happy with it's current system. To say that because it has an enormous natural resource that can subsidise it's welfare state and therefore it's massively increased cost of living and call it socialist is dishonest. It's also fucking stupid to think that it's exceptional natural resources that enable it's economy to exist can be mimicked in the Uk or indeed anywhere else when: The UK doesn't produce nearly as much fucking oil comparative to it's population as Norway does.

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster Part deux:

second point: Private property laws. This is always a killer for you socialist idiots because you avoid saying it or ignore it as it's the single largest cause of Socialism's demise at the hands of the Government. Not to mention if you erode those laws it tends to get out of control what with, I don't know, handing that much power to the state. You've seen 1984 right? Tit:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-011-4848-1_10

"The rejection of private property rights was the central premise of socialism from its earliest days, and the abolition of private property rights was the driving ideological force behind all socialist experiments in the twentieth century"

Ho Hum... Norway has the standard private property rights of a free market economy.

Countries that do no have standard private property rights, that is the state can take ownership as and when it wants: China (fucks up your idea they're capitalist doesn't it, idiot), Venezuela, Ethiopia, Bolivia (all that farmland seized by the state eh), Zimbabwe (how do you thin that went in the early 1990's? Honestly how well did seizing all of that farmland affect their economy... It wasn't good was it?).

You know who else wants to infringe upon private property...? Labour does.

Two joint proposals given by Labour (John Mcdonnell masterminds these economic gems and he's an out and out Marxist).
-2017 proposal for the state to seize secondary+ homes from people if they were uninhabited to house the poor. Whether you agree with this policy or not (I don't, fuck me what a lunatic idea. You've watched The Wire right? What a fantastic way of making drug slums).
-Nationalise all private schools: They're private businesses (that means they're privately owned and not state run. I'll repeat that because you got owned by the dictionary remember??) If they don't want to sell up Labour are in for a bit of a time aren't they, oh wait: They'll just seize this other, means of production. Are you seeing a trend here?

Finally: Communist tenants are literally: The state has ownership of private property. Read the manifesto. McDonnell is a Marxist. Please read this and research it, you're embarrassing yourself with this naive commie gobbledegook.

Suck on that dickhead, LOL.

Gonkster said...

All you are doing is swearing and being abusive and then whining about missing the word 'private' from ownership.
It makes no difference, the definition is the same, which is probably why you're getting hot under the collar about it. I did directly link to the exact wording on Wikipedia so feel free to go correct the article there.

I did ask if private direct ownership of a business by it's employees was capitalism, this is what I was inferring at earlier. It is possible for governments to own shares in businesses globally, as does Norway with it's investment fund for example. This makes the nitpicking you are ranting about irrelevant. It is possible for groups or individuals private or otherwise to buy and sell shares, so it's not exclusively private ownership anywhere in the global model is it?

Do I think Russia is now capitalist? To what extent exactly? Where do you draw your line?
I did ask earlier, is it 100% state ownership? 90% 50???

Is there a country with a gov that has no ownership of anything? Somalia perhaps? Is Somalia capitalist? Is it a good example of capitalism? lol...

See what I did there? Took an example of what can be defined as capitalist and yet it is clearly a failed state. It's a mismanaged mess. Do I go around trolling conservative sites a pointing at Somalia as an example of what they are after? Nope, got better things to do with my life, hence the daily mail comment. Not to mention the right wingnuts would rightly point out that Somalia can hardly be considered capitalist due to it's failed state status.

Perhaps we should privatise the NHS? Heck , why not the Police? Perhaps the armed forces?

Personally, I have no beef with 'some' services being state run and 'some' being privatised. The issue I have is with what has been chosen to be privatised. Had the Tories privatised the BBC and abandoned the TV license I would have cheered them on.
Had they chased down offshore tax dodgers instead of finger wagging at the elderly and disabled like Nazis I'd have probably voted for them because after all, I believe in private ownership...real private ownership.

https://www.icij.org/investigations/paradise-papers/paradise-papers-long-twilight-struggle-offshore-secrecy/

^ What are they doing about all that money sat there doing bugger all? And since when does that compare to the welfare bill?

The way I see it is this....if the Tories don't want to provide any services, then I don't want to pay ANY tax. No tv license, no fuel duty, no alcohol duty, no tobacco duty, no stamp duty, no national insurance and sure as hell no VAT. I mean, after all...we're leaving the EU right? What's the point in paying VAT anymore?
Also I want a gun to protect my property and person because they are obviously incapable of doing anything with taxes they get except bailing out their pals and then whining at doleys and immigrants with a situation they created.

Anonymous said...

So, I posted my original comment at 12.03 yesterday, above.

I return to find the usual, turgid rubbish coming from those seeking to hide the obvious, and oft demonstrated disaster, that is socialism.

Norway ... Sweden .... Socialist countries???? FFS! Just because the state owns some businesses, that doesn't make them socialist countries. FFS, The USA owns, The Postal service, Amtrak, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac! Is the USA a socialist country??? The UK state owns lots of businesses and, thank god, we are not a socialist country ... yet. The idea that Norway and Sweden are examples of successful socialist economies is pure fantasy.

The Labour leaders are on record as wanting to overthrow capitalism. They want the state to own the means of production. They ignore every example, ever, of where that system has been implemented. They believe they have some unique insight into a way that socialism can be implemented such that the health and wealth of the masses increases - despite every example showing the exact opposite - whilst western style capitalism demonstrably achieves increases in health and wealth around the globe.

Socialism is the dream, usually, of those that "can't do". They want others to have the ideas, take the risks, work all hours, create jobs, create profits ... then take it off them! Socialists just want to steal privately owned assets.

Only those that don't remember, or don't know about, companies like British Leyland, could possibly believe that socialism works. Those that think the government should own BT obviously were not around when it did own its predecessor! You had to "apply" for a telephone line, you had to wait 2 months to get a line and you had to pay whatever they said you had to pay. The service and maintenance was awful. Nobody cared. Nobody ever got sacked for being useless - because the unions would strike and secondary picket in "solidarity" with the useless numpties.

Corbyn and McDonnell are two of the most dangerous characters in the UK. They must never be allowed anywhere near the reins of power. That would be economic treason.

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

Again, you said:
"Finland, Norway, Sweden....so every socialist country is getting poorer is it?
Save it for the daily mail comments section."

Apologise for the daily mail comment and I'll stop insulting you. You're also getting insulted because you stated the countries were socialist as a statement of fact and you've spent this entire chat floundering.

It's really very simple: Is the government of that country trying to seize the means of production from privately owned business through: Buying it outright and/or seizing it through abolition of private property? That is socialism. I've cited this definition. Repeatedly. You stating random markets that are nationalised is not socialism, that's you unable to back up your original claim and floundering with whatabourtery as Thomas would put it.

Norway has no example of it's government trying to continually seize the means of production and they adhere to private property laws.

In answer to your questions:

Russia: capitalist.
China: Socialist.
Norway: Capitalist.
Finland: Capitalist.
Sweden: Capitalist.
Venezuela: Socialist.
Bolivia: Socialist.
Zimbabwe: Socialist.

There's nuance based upon the history of a countries economics, that's why ignorant idiots like yourself think Norway is socialist because it owns it's own oil. That's why China has a slave class and a middle class. But that's ignorance because you've proven repeatedly you can't understanding or refuse to read up on basic definitions. You're an embarrassment and hilarious.

I will happily talk about any of your other points if you actually answer the question you set up in this very chat:

Is Norway socialist? y/n. If yes: citation, evidence of this. Otherwise: Go fuck your mother.

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

FYI, the comment above my last post is a different anon to myself. I agree with him on everything.

Now: Answer the question you started dickhead.

Anonymous said...

Gonkster wrote "I did ask if private direct ownership of a business by it's employees was capitalism".

The simple answer is, yes! If workers group together to own and run a business then that is capitalism. They privately own shares, or are partners in, a private business. The Coop, John Lewis, Waitrose are examples.

What the state cannot be allowed to do is introduce legislation that means that the state can insist on buying (or taking) shares or ownership, forcibly, from an individual or company, at whatever price the state deems. That's called Theft.

I think you are confusing freedom and private ownership - with socialism - which is quite a thing to do!

Gonkster said...

No, I meant as in employees having 100% ownership with no private unsalaried ownership.
You have to have a 'job' there or rather purchase a job, you would not be able to buy any shares because they wouldn't be publicly listed.
They would be voting shares too.

I don't know of any businesses like that in the UK, the only example I know of is Mondragon.

IMHO this is an example of bringing democracy into capitalism, hence the term syndicalism.

It does loosely fit the description of socialism but without the involvement of a government.

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

No it doesn't, there are still private property laws in place.

So you admit Norway is not socialist?

Gonkster said...

@Anon
"Is Norway socialist? y/n. If yes: citation, evidence of this. Otherwise: Go fuck your mother."

Sigh...

https://theweek.com/articles/783700/democratic-socialism-bad-why-norway-great

They are social democrats in Norway, same as most of the rest of the world.
It's interesting that you list Russia as capitalist for example. Personally I don't think either Norway or Russia are shining examples of capitalism. If Norway as over 50% state ownership of GDP then it's not exactly a great example of capitalism. It has to be categorised as something else.
Similarly if China, Cuba or Venezuala are the only examples of socialism then the labour manifesto and UK condition cannot be included in the comparison as it doesn't call for the complete removal of democracy.

Labour would need 20 years in gov to make anything like all of Corbyn's supposed changes.

In 5 years they might manage to build some council houses and nationalise rail as contracts come to an end. Big deal.

Could the tories turn the uk into somalia in 5 years?

TBH I fear Tories more than Labour right now. Thats simply because they are abandoning all responsibility. I'm not keen on Brexit either, I'd rather keep the UK intact than breakup the union and enforce sanctions on ourselves...somehow I just don't think that's a great idea anymore than the rest of the tory 'ideas' to make themselves look like they are 'doing something'.

Anonymous said...

@ Gonkster 11.37

You wrote "No, I meant as in employees having 100% ownership with no private unsalaried ownership."

You are very confused person! The John Lewis Parnership owns John Lewis and Waitrose. The employees of the partnership ARE the effective owners. Instead of a dividend, they receive a bonus based upon their salary and the profits of the business.

This is capitalism, pure and simple. Just like you and a mate deciding to go into business together and sharing the profits.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the government or socialism. It is private enterprise. Its about personal freedom for individuals to do what they want to do without interference from the state. Please try to understand.





Gonkster said...

Eh?
I never said it wasn't capitalist?

If anything it's MORE capitalist than a publicly shared business is it not?

Salary bonus is not quite the same thing as dividend share though and it's certainly not the same model as Mondragon. It's close though. That to me is capitalism, this idea of wealthy private individuals who do bugger all work leeching off the back of others is socialism for the wealthy. It's the reverse flip side of welfare for the unemployed who also play a part in wage repression which feeds back again for the owners who do no work.

Mondragon funds its own services, the employees purchase their share with a loan if needed from mondragons own bank, the profits are recycled within the biz.

Labour is about supporting co-ops etc and that more than anything else is what pisses off the rich. I doubt they could give 2 hoots about the rest of his policies.

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

And we're back to stating definitions and repeating facts again:

"https://theweek.com/articles/783700/democratic-socialism-bad-why-norway-great

They are social democrats in Norway, same as most of the rest of the world."

There are Socialists in all over the world, but a country isn't socialist unless it's government is. Ryan cooper is as dishonest as you. He cites Alexandria Ocasio Cortez as being socialist. She is. The green new deal was specifically written as abolishing property rights so the state can control swathes of the U.S market.

" Personally I don't think either Norway or Russia are shining examples of capitalism. If Norway as over 50% state ownership of GDP then it's not exactly a great example of capitalism. It has to be categorised as something else."

As I've cited before: Norway has such a large state control of it's GDP due to its oil resources, the cost of this is one of the highest costs of living in the world. It's economy model is clearly and very obviously incompatible with the Uk's. We've got nearly ten times the amount of people here.

"Similarly if China, Cuba or Venezuala are the only examples of socialism then the labour manifesto and UK condition cannot be included in the comparison as it doesn't call for the complete removal of democracy."

They're not the only examples, I've cited Ethiopia and Bolivia. All five of them AGAIN you fucking moron, abolished property rights.

"Labour would need 20 years in gov to make anything like all of Corbyn's supposed changes."

They want to aabolish private property laws a la the two proposals they made in their recent and past manifesto I cited and again: John Mcdonnell is a Marxist.

"In 5 years they might manage to build some council houses and nationalise rail as contracts come to an end. Big deal."

You're a fucking idiot. Look at any country that's abolished private property laws and tell me they have a healthy economy and a decent standard of living? Similarly you're ignoring minimum wage (which Norway doesn't have) and the massive cost to business that's had in Canada, New York and California.

Socialism= abolishing private property laws. Norway is not socialist.

Fucking deal with that dickhead lol.

Gonkster said...

"You're a fucking idiot. Look at any country that's abolished private property laws...."

Ermmm...WTF?

Unknown said...

You have a potty mouth... your mother would be ashamed of you

Anonymous said...

@Unknown

Your face is so ugly it opens up like a flower. A cauliflower!

Anonymous said...

@Gonkster

Man, you think abolishing private schools and taking people's second home's isn't going against private property laws? Not to mention Mcdonnell being an outright commie? Jeez man, you're actually quiet ridiculous. You have been reading this conversation right? You did understand I've cited those Labour policies multiple times right?

A conversation with you and a friend must be a real meeting of the mind.

Anonymous said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_property

Just give it a read man, just try... for once in this thread could you just be a man and try?

JC4PM! said...

Wikipedia lol

Anonymous said...

@JC4PM (Because after ten years of ideological austerity, of a Tory Government mismanaging nationalised markets, we need an authoritarian party bent on undermining property rights and seizing the means of production. You fucking idiot LOL).

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/property_rights.asp

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Market_failures/Property_rights.html
(This link actually points out that the swathes of Amazon Forrest being burnt down are due to: a lack of property rights. You silly twat).

https://www.heritage.org/index/property-rights

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/property-rights

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/property%20right
(damn those suffragettes campaigning for property rights for women!)

You are a fucking idiot. LOL. Good luck today. I'm absolutely sure the failure of socialism worldwide, of the state being empowered to seize property so it can control the means of production is exactly what the UK needs. (because giving it to some other random as a co-operative worked so well in Venezuala, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia... Fuck me, does no one in these pages read history?)

Anonymous said...

The worst result since 1935, Tories majority of 80, so Tommy boy what ye got to say about that?

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Anonymous said...

It's very clear: The UK have voted to leave the E.U, this election entirely represents that being re-inforced. It's just a shame that the protracted efforts of leavers in parliament and the media have shafted the UK into three years of economic uncertainty and it looks like the only deal we'll have is awful: But it's still leave.

Hopefully this stonking Tory majority courtesy of Labour incompetence with give the conservatives the ability to re-negotiate.

To all of you licking your wounds: Suck it up.

Labour's socialism has been rejected democratically by the UK. You fucked it. Move on or wallow.

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